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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
It is supposed to ge released in a few hours, but names are already leaking out. It looks like the Rocket is going to be named:

ESPN: Clemens named in Mitchell report

The Mitchell Report, MLB's investigation into steroids in the game, will be released at 2 p.m. ET today. Former Sen. George Mitchell will hold a news conference then, followed by a 4:30 conference with Commissioner Bud Selig.

Many baseball experts believe that the report will largely contain the names and info of players such as Jason Grimsley who had previously been linked to illegal drug use. Others suggest that it could have a great impact and reveal names that had not previously been released.

We will have a ton of coverage later today, but some reports have already come out. ESPN is reporting that a former Yankee trainer who talked to Mitchell said he provided Roger Clemens with steroids.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2007/12/espn-clemens-na.html
Must have been when he was on the Blue Jays and Yankees, because he was just Fat his last few years with the Sox :r

Though you have to wonder, if he is named, if it will keep him out of the hall. Or will baseball black ball people and take away awards and titles. I have a feeling the WWE Wellness Policy is going to look pretty good after this report is released.

THe way to beat doping is with Sporting Fraud Laws. There is financial gain involved. Bigger contracts and incentive clauses for one. If you get an extra million for winning the MVP but were second to say a Bonds or Giambi, they committed an act of fraud. Instead of a suspension for steroid use, how about a being brought up on Federal Charges.
 

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The Rocket doesn't surprise me. Pettitte is a little bit of a surprise to me tho. Seems like Jose Canseco wasn't lying.

I know this may piss some people off and it's not my intent as I have always liked him, but I wouldn't be surprised to see A-Rod's name come up. Like Bonds he has gotten alot bigger.

CBF

Edit: I just remembered telling NCRadioMan when Rocket came back this year that his forearms looked smaller than they have in the past. I guess with all the stuff with steroids Roger decided not to chance it this year and his forearms looked drastically smaller.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I know this may piss some people off and it's not my intent as I have always liked him, but I wouldn't be surprised to see A-Rod's name come up. Like Bonds he has gotten alot bigger.
Actually, I would not be suprised if most of the slugging Shortstops came up on the list. Nomar for sure, possibly Jeter, Tejada and Arod even though he plays 3rd now. It was a position that you never expected any offense from, then all of the sudden in the late 90s, they became power hitters?

I remember after his Rookie Year Nomar put on a good 15-20 pounds of muscle after the of season. Even the Boston Sports writers were calling him out for it.
 

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All the numbers will stay, there is going to be no way to re-write the statistics (including the records) over the last 10 years or so.

I doubt anyone implicated will make it into the HOF. Palmiero and McGuire don't have a chance from their Senate testimony. Most of the sportswriters (especially the HOF voters) have said they won't give them the votes.

I don't think the "Steroid Boys" should ever make it in, the game is tainted because of them and it was tainted when they were playing and they caused it. Same as Black Sox (Joe Jackson) never making it in. As opposed to say Pete Rose who I think should make it in - posthumously. His numbers while he was playing were 1st ballot HOF, but he tainted the game after he established those numbers when he was coaching. But his players stats are clean. So I think he should make it on those numbers, but after he is passed so that he never has the opportunity to enjoy the accolades. The Steroid Boys will never be able to claim their stats/numbers were clean. Amazing about Bonds is he had HOF numbers way back in mid to late 90's. If he never did anything subsequent to that he would have made it, but he couldn't resist the whirlwind and recognition surrounding McGuire/Sosa during their home run race. So he sold his soul for a few pieces of silver and fame - it's not like he is the first, or will be the last to do that.

I don't think A-Rod will be on it. I think he has a naturally larger frame and limbs than Bonds to put on the weight. Probably about the same height as McGuire, but he looks nothing like McGuire did in the late 90's - the guy had three sets of shoulders, I mean he was huge. So I think (hope) A-rod is clean.
 

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Actually, I would not be suprised if most of the slugging Shortstops came up on the list. Nomar for sure, possibly Jeter, Tejada and Arod even though he plays 3rd now. It was a position that you never expected any offense from, then all of the sudden in the late 90s, they became power hitters?
You might be right about some of them, but I disagree about not expecting offense from your shortstops. Typically you see your 2d baseman leading off and being the on-base guy, and yes SS's sometimes are in the back of the order.

But as far as no offense from shortstops, that idea started to change when a fielding gem like Ozzie Smith started putting up decent numbers (2500 hits over 19 years, 260 lifetime BA). And that trend was absolutely shattered, as you know, by Cal Ripken.
 

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Roger was always suspected...but in a way I didn't want to believe it because I grew up watching him as a Sox fan. Reality hits today though...

Now the main question that comes out of this: If sport's writers won't put Bonds into the HOF because of his steroid use, they have to do the same for Clemens, right?
 

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You might be right about some of them, but I disagree about not expecting offense from your shortstops. Typically you see your 2d baseman leading off and being the on-base guy, and yes SS's sometimes are in the back of the order.

But as far as no offense from shortstops, that idea started to change when a fielding gem like Ozzie Smith started putting up decent numbers (2500 hits over 19 years, 260 lifetime BA). And that trend was absolutely shattered, as you know, by Cal Ripken.
A lot of shortstops were scrappy hitters. There are a lot of them in MLB history who put up good and great averages. However, until the mid-90's, it wasn't a power position...not like it often is now.
 

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A lot of shortstops were scrappy hitters. There are a lot of them in MLB history who put up good and great averages. However, until the mid-90's, it wasn't a power position...not like it often is now.
I agree with that in my post - it started to change and the trend was destroyed when Ripken came along. Extremely large for a shortstop and power at the plate. From that point on, he set a new prototype for shortstops and many teams looked for that type. No longer was a large 6 foot infielder destined only for third base or first (maybe catcher - but we can talk about that change of prototype in another thread!!).

Due to Ripken breaking the mold, guys like A-rod (large rangy shortstops) became sought after. Maybe that pushed guys like Garciaparra and Jeter to bulk up and start producing at the plate, we'll see what the report says.

My point is, Ripken changed the prototype not steroids. Teams obviously saw value in that style of shortstop, and players likely jumped on the "juice" bandwagon to fit the Ripken prototype - but that is no different than any other position on the field.

From now on (and hopefully without steroids), large mobile shortstops will be sought out. Likely because of their size they will no longer be "scrappy" hitters, but dangerous ones. And if you are looking for that type, you are gonna see more power from that position. I will concede steroids probably added to it, but you can't say it is completely the result of steroids when you start seeing someone the natural size of A-Rod (6-3) at the plate. the old short quick short stops were scrappy because they didn't have the physical height and leverage to be anything but that. 6-3 without steroids can still generate a lot of power at the plate, and if that is what teams are seeking, than this IMO, is the #1 reason (not steroids) we are seeing power from that position.
 

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the whole idea that the steroid situation should impact the hall of fame is puzzling to me.

Baseball hadn't put any rules in place to say that they were prohibited. The management didn't take any action to verify suspected players. The team trainers didn't say anything seemed unusual or exeptional about the results of the training and conditioning. The fans didn't make a fuss about what was obvious to anyone with 2 eyes.

So, all in all - I don't think that there should be such a big issue.

Let me ask you - How do you feel about Lawrence Taylor and the football hall of fame - he played most of his games under the influence of cocaine and was an admitted heavy user in spite of NFL, national and international laws. Isn't that more serious than what the baseball players did with everyone's implied consent.
 

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the whole idea that the steroid situation should impact the hall of fame is puzzling to me.

Baseball hadn't put any rules in place to say that they were prohibited. The management didn't take any action to verify suspected players. The team trainers didn't say anything seemed unusual or exeptional about the results of the training and conditioning. The fans didn't make a fuss about what was obvious to anyone with 2 eyes.

So, all in all - I don't think that there should be such a big issue.

Let me ask you - How do you feel about Lawrence Taylor and the football hall of fame - he played most of his games under the influence of cocaine and was an admitted heavy user in spite of NFL, national and international laws. Isn't that more serious than what the baseball players did with everyone's implied consent.
The issue is not what they did, which I could care less about if it did not impact the sanctity of the game. Comparatively I won't draw a distinction between cocaine vs steroid use. In everyday society I suppose you can say cocaine use is worse. But in the case of MLB, performance enhancing steroids have altered the purity of the game and its statistics. You can't accurately compare the numbers of Aaron/Ruth/Maris with McGuire and Bonds. That is the problem, not the relative comparison of cocaine use being worse than Steroid use.

I could give a darn what these guys (or anyone for that matter) shoots, smokes, snorts, eats, drinks, or takes as an enema. I will caveat that, and say the law is the law and drugs are illegal and the book should be thrown at you if you harm anyone as a result of drug/alcohol use, or peddle to children. But the point here is, steroids altered our national game in a way cocaine use never could. These guys should be ascetic enough to concede the divineness of the game is far more important than their self-aggrandizement.

BillyBarue

PS, and yes I think LT was using Steroids too and deserves the same/similar condemnation at increasing his performance unnaturally and making the football HOF. But again, Baseball is our national pastime and I can't help but grant baseball more reverance in that regard (call it a personal flaw).
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Due to Ripken breaking the mold, guys like A-rod (large rangy shortstops) became sought after. Maybe that pushed guys like Garciaparra and Jeter to bulk up and start producing at the plate, we'll see what the report says.

My point is, Ripken changed the prototype not steroids. Teams obviously saw value in that style of shortstop, and players likely jumped on the "juice" bandwagon to fit the Ripken prototype - but that is no different than any other position on the field.
But you had players like Nomar, Tejada and A-rod with modest HR numbers in the minors double or triple those HR numbers within a couple of years in the majors, there is a good chance they were on the juice. Yes size can make a difference, but when you see a big jump in power for any position, it often involves steroids.
 

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Some of the names in the report so far;

Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Miguel Tejada
Mark McGwire
Fernado Vina
Kevin Brown
Rondell White
Mo Vaughn
Kent Mercker
Matt Herges
Eric Gagne
Paul LoDuca
David Segui
Dennie Neagle
Glenallen Hill
Jason Grimsley
Ken Caminiti
Gary Sheffield
Barry Bonds
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Armando Rios
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Lansing
Todd Pratt
David Justice
Greg Zaun
Chuck Knoblauch
Matt Franco
Hal Morris
Mark Carreon
Todd Hundley
Brian Roberts
Larry Bigbie
Lenny Dykstra
Marvin Bernard
Benito Santiago
Wally Joyner
Mike Stanton
Rick Ankiel
Gary Matthews Jr.
Paul Byrd
Sammy Sosa
Troy Glaus
Jose Guillen
Darren Holmes
John Rocker
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
David Bell........

And the list keeps going............................

Looks like most of MLB was on something. And these are just the one's we know about only 70 of 500 players were interviewed that they wanted to interview.

CBF
 

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But you had players like Nomar, Tejada and A-rod with modest HR numbers in the minors double or triple those HR numbers within a couple of years in the majors, there is a good chance they were on the juice. Yes size can make a difference, but when you see a big jump in power for any position, it often involves steroids.
I say size is the first thing, and steroids adds to it. If A-rod is on the list than I will retract and say steroids first than size (height) are what contributed to power from the Shortstop position over the last decade.

I am still hoping/thinking A-rod is clean. He just doesn't have the gargantuan abnormal characteristics that we see with "Big-head" Barry and shoulders that mimic the Italian Alps that McGwire had (and lost pretty damn fast when baseball ended for him).

Just saw the list to get this edit in. No Garciaparra or A-rod ---- so far.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I am still hoping/thinking A-rod is clean. He just doesn't have the gargantuan abnormal characteristics that we see with "Big-head" Barry and shoulders that mimic the Italian Alps that McGwire had (and lost pretty damn fast when baseball ended for him).

Just saw the list to get this edit in. No Garciaparra or A-rod ---- so far.
The list will not get everyone. Nomar was on them for sure. You just cannot gain that body mass over one off season without them.

As for A-rod, he has had a change in body shape and definition, but not as dramatic as Bonds. I think bonds did the HGH whioch made his head shape change.

 

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the whole idea that the steroid situation should impact the hall of fame is puzzling to me.

Baseball hadn't put any rules in place to say that they were prohibited. The management didn't take any action to verify suspected players. The team trainers didn't say anything seemed unusual or exeptional about the results of the training and conditioning. The fans didn't make a fuss about what was obvious to anyone with 2 eyes.

So, all in all - I don't think that there should be such a big issue.

Let me ask you - How do you feel about Lawrence Taylor and the football hall of fame - he played most of his games under the influence of cocaine and was an admitted heavy user in spite of NFL, national and international laws. Isn't that more serious than what the baseball players did with everyone's implied consent.
Couldn't agree more...all this has done is open up a box that MLB didn't want opened. The Bonds witch hunt has created a mess and now they have no idea what to do.
 

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Sure are. Pandora's Box has been opened. Let's see what else comes out.

I do wonder if this could cause enough friction between MLB and the Players Union to cause another strike.

CBF
Never understood the people who argued that a pitcher wouldn't use steroids because there was little potential benefit. We often forget that one of the primary benefits of roids is accelerated healing, something a pitcher would find especially useful. Emergence of the closer, anyone? ;)
 
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